WELFARE REFORM IMPACTS ON TRIBAL SOCIAL SERVICES:

A NATIONAL FORUM

Sponsered by the National Congress of American Indians

Thursday, April 23, 1998

Double Tree Hotel LLoyd Center Portland Oregon        

TAPE TRANSCRIPTION       
 

Welcome - Moderator

Invocation - R. T. Burke

Address - R. Allen
 

HOUSING AND TRANSPORTAION
D. Goff
L. Bingham
D. Burnie
R. McKay
E. WalleR
 

ALCOHOLISM and SUBSTANCE ABUSE:
M. Echohawk
A. Ladamer
 
EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE:
J. Bushman
E. Adams
W. Clarke
B. Greenstein
A. Klane
M.A. O'Neill E. Fox Discussion

CHILD SUPPORT SERVICES:
R. Mills
S. Sodamish
J. Olson

WELFARE OF ELDERS:
D. Baldridge
Y. Jackson
R. Barker
D. Cortora
B. Greenstein
 
 
 
 
  P R O C E E D I N G S

MODERATOR: If I could have your attention, please. And for those of you that would like to find a seat, we can go ahead and get started. We have got a very, very full agenda and hopefully a very exciting one in which we can address what I believe are some very timely and critical issues. In doing so, though, we are going to have to have your cooperation, your attention, as well as strong participation.

We would like to begin by welcoming all of you here. I know that all of you come from different parts of the country with different interests in regards to welfare reform because welfare reform takes in so many different types of programs all the way from social services to employment and training to education and to economic development.

Today we are going to be addressing one of those key components, and that's basically the support services on how we move people from welfare to work.

Before we go any further, however, we would like to get started by having an invocation. We have asked Raymond T. Burke, Mr. Burke, who is from the Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla Indian Reservation. We are very honored to have him here today. And where is he?

MR. BURKE: I am here.

MODERATOR: Oh, yes. We are very honored to have him here today. And as he is coming up, this is a gentleman who has distinguished himself as a veteran in World War II, as a tribal leader serving on tribal council and as tribal chairman, as a volunteer in being of service to the people in working with youth.

He has great spirit about being of service and of helping others. It's this kind of individual that brings honor to us as an elder, and an elder that we can hold, and brings honor to us, as I have indicated, on a daily basis.

We would like to have him do the invocation for us. I should also mention that he is the father of six children and the grandfather of 11 children. That's always critical.

MR. BURKE: I am glad to be here with you people today. I know many of you have done lots of things. I see packed with lots of good things, thoughts.

Today I was coming through the traffic thinking about the old people, thinking, gee, we are going to be late, we have only gotten 25 minutes to go, and we are coming through lots of traffic. Old folks used to have horses them days ago but they never used to have a worry about being late. Always kind of maybe that's where the Indian time come, start on their time when they get there. But it was good anyway even though we waited for our chief here. He just come in in a hurry, but he explain a lot of things just within seconds. Never make us so we won't forget.

But I want to say on greeting people, like he greeted, that we will greet today on Indian words, (inaudible). Greeted your people wherever you come from, the north, south, west, wherever you come from, to greet you at this big meeting. This is the kind of way our people used to do, to greet people. Whether they were white, whether they were different color, it was good to greet them. Somebody would tell them about what they said. So this, again, we are going to learn something today.

I was telling one man here, these things we have on the agenda, I don't know how many times we went through them. Today we are going to try again. Bring these things up. Maybe something that we forget, things that make us people kind of take notice when somebody brings something up to tell you or maybe the president reminds us once in a while.

Maybe the big chiefs of all the nations here, people that are going to have another big council, chiefs also, these people in mind and open heart, open mind, to tell us what we should do. Maybe if they can do it before things ever happen and we will leave and we will have something bigger to say.

This kind of things we got to be ready. It's like the stop sign says "Stop." Might be a man there with a little pole says "Stop." Then "Go." Reminds us so that we won't get in an accident. Lots of rules. Indians always respected. They called it the Tumanuet (phonetic). All the Creator's laws. Respect the ground, even the weather, the sunshine, the wind, all like that. Fresh air, with (inaudible) noses that go up in the air.

This morning everybody cleaned up. We are clean. Also we should have clean hearts when we come. Talk about important things. Indian people, Indian human beings. We do that with open heart, open mind, maybe things will be done. Do things, Indians follow spiritual physicalness.

Indians believed, had faith to survive, our people, especially all the blue mountains, faith to survive. Faith that the Creator would bring them all the fish in the tributary waters, the mountains that the white father left them. Seeded areas. These were important. This is the way the lifestyle of the Indian was, eat, live off of the land, good environment.

We lost that. Not much left. Maybe some of us are just a little speck on the map now. They want everything. No thought of kindness, no thought of other human beings.

Today we are going to listen to all the things in this agenda. Our people, the housing, have hard times. Some adjust it too high. Don't give the other people a chance. White man has the contract. Indians should have the contract so they can adjust to the Indian ways. Even the laws, have court outside. You always get beat but you have your own laws in tribal reservation. These at least give you a chance, your Indian ways, the habits of Indians.

Long time ago they used to never punish, fine them for money. Always a big switch. Maybe five lashes to start with. And they would leave. Not a one ever see you again. Comes back the second time, same offense, double the switching even if he is a big human being, older one.

Maybe it is good to go back about the people that used to go in the buggy days down the road, dusty, good country, forest, roads. I learn to drive a team

-- I hate to say how old I am today. I am 74 years old and seeing some of the old people. Also seeing some of the new things. How many have seen Buck Rogers funny papers.

Seen all of the new things that were to come. Even the white man (inaudible) it all and others that, oh, I can't believe that's ever going to happen. Fastest booming sound plane 3,000 feet per second, going to the moon. I have seen important days. First television, Dick Tracy on these launches that see on the other side.

Important times. We want to improve our people. Domestic violence, alcohol, drug. If I was to ask to raise your hand, you are alcoholic, (inaudible). Violence to each other, violence to your people, other people.

I guess honesty today -- handshake was binding. If we uphold them kind of things maybe we wouldn't have all of this. Today we could be at home taking it easy. Everything is going nice today. Tomorrow, too.

Had something here. Went to a prayer service the other day. Of all people I should see was there was this young negro, Meadowlark. Told the history, story about himself. Even the negroes have problems. White people have problems. Anglo people, I should call them. White human beings, and the dark human beings, and brown human beings.

I think many of us forget -- in our country we talk about the old man upstairs. Used to ride with my grandfather. His Indian name was (inaudible). Tom Ton was his name. Used to ride beside him. I could hear him talking. He said, "Tell the old man I always talk to you but never seem to help me. What do I have to do? Would you give me a good sign."

And I would ask him, "Why are you talking to him?" "Oh, the Great Spirit. He helps us if we ask him." He would (inaudible), human beings, different kind of human beings.

Maybe today when everybody leaves, have to talk to the old man for all of these things on the agenda. Nothing is impossible, they tell us, if we ask these people of the Council to go to work for us, help us.

(Inaudible) the invocation I was remembering the older people, those that come -- think about how you were. Are you honest? Are you going to help your people? Say we have to keep clean to do things. We will be honest. Go back home, tell them what you heard, tell them what you have seen.

This I heard at the prayer service the other day. You probably recognize this prayer. It was done a long time ago in one of the presidents, Lincoln's time when he had hard time, talking about his people. Maybe this fits in with us, too.

We have grown in number, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown, but we have forgotten God and we have vainly imagined in the deceitfulness of our hearts that all of these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of (inaudible) aided with unbroken success. The necessity of all redeeming and preserving grace too proud to pray. And God has made us in the holiest (inaudible) humble ourselves to confess (inaudible) sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.

I think this is important, like we always hear, listen to the elders, listen to the ministers, listen to the leaders of the reservation. Be humble, open your heart, take time to listen, voice your good opinion. I think these are important (inaudible) overcome. Open ourselves up. They will open themselves. Humbleness is something that very few have. Let us look at Creator once in a while, man upstairs, talk to him.

I know the war (inaudible) ending. People will say when is it going to end. All the people got together as one, people that went into Indian war was one. Ones that went to the Pacific theater, the Atlantic theater, was one. People that prayed for all the ending, prayed. We should do the same again. Maybe it will work.

I want to thank you again for letting me be here.

MODERATOR: Leyland, what are we going to do about space here? We are definitely overcrowded. Are we going to get it cooled down a little bit?

Make yourselves comfortable a little bit. Take off your coats, if you have coats, and relax just a little bit.

Again, for those of you that have come in late we would like to welcome you. We apologize for the little crowded positions. It's never clear how many we are going to have or not have, but it's clearly an indication of the interest that continues to grow in regards to the welfare of American Indian people and families and children.

As we get prepared for this we have a welcome by an individual who I have known for a number of years. When we look at new legislation, with every new legislation comes opportunities and challenges as well as concerns. But the man that will be introducing or welcoming us here today perhaps represents one of those individuals that is always, and I have to stress always, has been willing to take on a challenge, willing to take a look at what the opportunities are, but not to turn his head away from what the issues are as well, but to take a look at both and then begin to think creatively what can we do, where do we need to go, et cetera.

When I first met this gentleman, I think in Washington, D.C., he always had an answer to things. He carried his briefcase around and every time an issue came up he is reaching in his briefcase saying, "I think I can speak to that." It was obvious to know that when I first met him that he would eventually emerge, not only as a leader for his nation, but a leader across the nation of American Indian people.

It's been a honor to know him, to see his leadership, to see his creative courage and his willingness to step up to the plate and to address some very tough issues as well as to champion issues such as welfare reform.

Ron, we thank you for your support through the National Congress of American Indians and we welcome you here to this meeting to give us a welcome.

MR. ALLEN: Thank you, Eddie. I am honored to be able to be here with you and thank you very much for the introduction and nice compliments.

I welcome everyone here on behalf of NCAI. We are trying to help, take the lead in bringing people together across the nation to deal with the welfare reform legislation. I think that if I was going to try to get a single concept across to you as we engage in the discussion today on the various topics of welfare reform, that is the single concept of focus and perspective.

Last workshop we talked about the TANF programs and all the conditions and considerations that the tribe should look at with regard to TANF programs. We talked about the problems with regard to our economies and jobs, the issues that we have with regard to finding placements for our people in order to implement the Act, the deficiencies of the thinking of the Act.

We talked about the need for development of our programs for our children and for our families. We talked about the need to strengthen and enhance the overall government-to-government capacities and relationships and cooperation between the tribes and the local governments and the state governments in implementing this program and making sure that the Federal Government is owning up to their responsibilities to Indian country who is often thought of, dealt with, I should say, in an afterthought policy with regard to Indian issues.

And last but not least, last workshop, we talked about the need for data, the need for data to understand exactly what's going on in our communities and a way to measure are we making progress, are we getting further behind, are we fighting the odds against the frustrating conditions imposed on our communities.

We have a long history, a long history of survival. That's what Indian country has always been about. That survival has been passed down to us. You could hear in the spirit of Elder Burke from Umatilla Nations that we are taught to know and understand about what our mission is as leaders and as implementers of our program to serve our people.

So today you have a next set of issues that we need to discuss and think through. As we think about all the challenges we have in Indian country they are overwhelming. They are just flat out overwhelming. You deal with threats against our sovereignty, our fundamental foundation of who we are. You see threats against -- imposition of taxations against the tribes, undermining our ability to become self-sufficient.

You see threats against the tribes in new kinds of conditions that are unreasonable as we reacquire our homelands for the purposes of economic development, for the purposes of homes, the development of places for homes for our community, and so forth.

You see threats in the forms about our ability to manage our natural resources.

Last but not least, you see threats against our ability to conduct our religious, cultural and traditional affairs the way we have always done them. All of a sudden roads going through traditional and religious areas are more important to society than respect for religious practices and areas that are sacred to the Indian communities who have sacrificed so much for this nation. All those kinds of issues. And I am only naming a few.

You got ISTEA out there and the NASDHAA issues out there and so forth. There is a lot on our plate. Now you are focusing on just one of them, welfare reform. And in welfare reform there is a lot of issues. I name but a few.

What are we going to talk about today? We've got housing and transportation, we have the need to deal with the alcohol and drug abuse problems in our communities, we have the need to be able to figure out how we are going to provide better services for our children so that they can be able to be served.

We have the problems and needs of strengthening our communities and our relationship with our elders and so forth. There is going to be a lot of issues. And we've got some great panel members here who are going to talk about these topics, talk about the complexities of each of these issues, and how we are going to deal with them.

So I go back to the point of focus and perspective. We need to methodically go through these issues. Now, each of us have our own techniques. Some of us are more linear. We just deal with it from A to Z and move on to the next one.

Some of us have a more random approach on how to deal with each of these issues. We will bounce back and forth. Neither is right or wrong. It is the style that we use in order to learn and understand the issues that we are challenged with. That's what we are going to deal with today. You are going to have a list of issues.

I want to keep this brief because I know we have a lot of discussions, but there is a little phrase that says, either meet or work. You can't do both. So the issue is you are meeting in order to exchange ideas and thoughts. But after you are done we have to go to work to get the job done. That's the bottom line.

So the issue is are we going to be committed to do that and are we going to be committed to make a difference and continue to survive and make it work. We have a lot to do, we have a lot of people to educate. Ninety-nine percent of America does not understand who we are and what our story is all about and yet we have to continue to plug on and continue to make a difference and survive for the benefit of our people.

The spirit of Elder Burke clearly is what drives us. But we have to think about our children to make them stronger so that they become viable people within our communities and provide opportunities for their parents who are still looking for jobs in order to be able to deal with what their needs are so they can have a way of life that is only right for America Indian and Alaska native people.

I thank you for being here very much. I look forward to the dialogue that is going to take place today and the solutions you have coming up in terms of how we are going to improve the welfare reform legislation and its impact on our communities. Thank you. (Applause).

MODERATOR: You know, Ron, President Allen just went over a number of issues and challenges that face us. And we have to ask ourselves why is social services, family and children so important. And why is it so important that we have support services in the community to help families and children. And I think it all comes down to the fact that it is stated that you cannot have a strong tribe or a nation unless you have strong communities.

You cannot have strong communities unless you have strong families. And you cannot have strong families unless those children and parents are working together and have the kind of support and security that they need each day to wake up, to go to school, to go to work, to be consistent, and to have those kind of services that literally each day gives someone hope when they wake up in the morning that through some work and through some planning that their children will have the opportunity of a quality education, that as parents they will have the opportunity to be able to raise their children in an environment which supports the kind of values that they have held as well as their ancestors have held.

So what we do here to me is some of the most important work that we will ever do in strengthening tribal governments, in strengthening tribal nations, and in strengthening tribal families.

We often talk about how important economic development is, and it certainly is important; and how important all of the other kinds of day-to-day life things. But unless we have people who are together, unless we have parents who are teaching, unless we have children who are listening and growing, we lose the battle on the other fronts.

So today we are delighted because if you look we are talking about temporary services and safety net programs critical to Indian people. It talks about a synopsis of welfare issues, but we are going to add something to that. We are going to talk about a synopsis of welfare reform initiatives and issues. Initiatives in that we know that there are a lot of very interesting things going on out there from our last summit.

We know that there are tribes that had not been just sitting still, that most of the tribes have been looking, thinking, doing very critical thinking of how do we make this work. Do we want to take -- the question is to TANF or not to TANF. And the idea is what can we do.

Now, the majority of tribes have not been, as I have said, just sitting there thinking, oh, what's going to happen to us. Many of the tribes have been taking on and taking different directions, meeting with state, meeting with their internal organizations as well discussing that.

Federal Government has been at work taking a look at how they can coordinate and understand what resources are out there and how the communication and coordination can improve.

So today we want to address all of that. Now, let me lay out some ground rules for this. If you look at the agenda you will probably ask yourselves how are they going to accomplish that. I asked the same question. So we have got a major task on our hands here today.

Let me set some ground rules then. They are very similar to what we did at the last summit, that is, each of the panelists here will have only three to four minutes to state their initiative or concern or whatever they feel is most important that they can deliver to the audience. And I will be very strict on that, and I would ask that you -- myself and Leyland will be out in the audience, that if we give you the cut-off sign, that that's what that means.

The only reason why is because we have a number of people here that come with a lot of questions and concerns and we want to get those questions and concerns addressed. And the only way we are going to do that is to a very strict kind of time frame.

We would also ask that as we look at housing, transportation, alcohol and substance abuse, suicide prevention and on and on through the program, that any one of those topics are so broad we could spend five days on one of those topics.

So we are asking your questions as well as the comments from the panelists to be focused on what that has to do with welfare reform, such as on housing, how does housing impact moving people from welfare to work.

Transportation. How is that impacting welfare reform and moving people from welfare to work. So we want to be very specific and specialized on this topic.

Any questions on that? We will have microphones out there so that when the panelists finish their presentations if you raise your hand we will make a microphone available to you.

We would like for you to be very specific in your response, if you have a question, to direct your question. If you have a comment. We are certainly looking for comments and ideas as well. But if you could keep that as specific as possible we would certainly appreciate that as well.

Our first panelist -- we are going to try to cover two sections. One, if you look at housing and transportation. Do we have everyone up here? Who are we missing? Is Bernie -- got to come up here. Can't talk from the back of the room.

Because there are two separate areas here we are going to address, first, housing. And I would like -- for housing we have Mr. Dan Goff (phonetic), who is director of housing for this region. And we have also Mr. Leroy Bingham. Could you please raise your hand, Leroy. Bingham who is president of Tribal Planning Services.

Now, to get started here, one of the things on housing: We often hear that up to 25 percent of American Indians live in undeveloped housing with no running water, electricity, whatever, compared to like 5 percent for the rest of the nation. Now, that's unheard of.

When we start talking about welfare reform we are saying how important is it that individuals, particularly single parent mothers with children, have decent places to live if they are in fact going to move from a welfare situation to a work situation. We don't want individuals having to worry about heating or the roof leaking or not having a roof over their head so that they are able to make sure that their children are safe and that they are able each morning to get up and go to work.

I am interested to see what's happening in the world of housing, addressing that, and what are the concerns that, maybe, are not being addressed.

So let's first begin with Mr. Dan Goff.

MR. GOFF: Good morning. Your program says that Jackie Johnson was supposed to be here this morning. Well, obviously, I am not Jackie. But I am Dan Goff. A little about myself. I am a (inaudible) Quapaw. My family is from Miami-Oklahoma area.

Currently I am the director of housing in the northwest office of Native American programs. I have been at that job for about 20 years. Prior to that I was the executive director of the Umatilla Reservation Housing Authority.

A PARTICIPANT: Stand up.

MR. GOFF: Pardon me?

A PARTICIPANT: Go ahead and stand up.

MR. GOFF: Oh, I am sorry, please.

A PARTICIPANT: We can't hear you.

MR. GOFF: Beg your pardon?

MODERATOR: Go ahead and use the microphone as well. Here, this one at the podium is fine.

MR. GOFF: In response to the question that was raised, what's available to assist in the scenario that was set up, we have recently enacted new legislation known as NASDHAA, the Native American Self Determination and Housing Assistance Act, which provides much, much greater flexibility to tribal governments.

First of all, it gives control of the housing program on the reservations to the tribes rather than the housing authorities unless the tribe decides that they want to continue that relationship with the Housing Authority. But it does give the options to tribal leaders on how the money is to be spent.

Now, the scenario that was raised about leaking roofs, about running water, that sort of thing, those are all things that can be addressed using the NASDHAA grants. Previously it was always new construction, modernization on HUD constructed homes, and it was pretty limited.

Now, it's a much broader kind of an opportunity where existing housing can be renovated, improvements can be made. But these are decisions that the local governments have to make. They have to set the priorities as to where they think their housing dollars are best spent. NASDHAA is an entitlement grant. So essentially everybody who provides HUD with an Indian housing plan will be eligible for a grant that's put together on a formula basis. You may want to talk about that when you get into it.

There are other grants that are available through HUD, Indian Community Development block grants, that can very definitely be used in the area of economic development which is something I know that you are all very much interested in. There are TOPS grants, (inaudible) Opportunity Programs; there are drug elimination grants. I am trying to think of -- this is kind of out of my area. I have got some notes here if I can refer to them.

At any rate there is a number of grants that are available to Indian tribes that are all geared toward employment opportunities, training, helping families transition between poverty and being a working family. So I would hope that this morning we can talk about some innovations that might work for you.

Recently we had a program called Family Self- Sufficiency -- that was under Secretary Kemp -- which was not a bad idea. I think now under NASDHAA, with the flexibility you have, it might be something to definitely look at. The basis of that program was that the housing entity or the tribe entered into a contract with a family that said they would provide these services, they would provide these educational opportunities, and the family would agree that they would pay their rent, they would be responsible, they would do all of the things that they were expected to do to make this transition.

And as a reward the rent that was paid by the family was escrowed during this period. And if they successfully lived up to their contract at the end of that they were given that money as kind of a start-up to either get them a place of their own or get them started in business or whatever they needed the money for. So that was one idea. But you have got the flexibility to be able to do those things.

MODERATOR: Thank you.

MR. GOFF: Okay.

MR. BINGHAM: Good morning everyone. My name is Leroy Bingham. I am from Montana originally. I am a member of the Blackfeet Indian tribe. My background, I am not a housing person. I was one of the tribal folks who sat on the NASDHAA Negotiated Rulemaking Committee, and I came to it basically with an employment and training and a tribal planning background. So if you ask specific housing questions, and it doesn't look like this is a housing crowd, so that's good. Anybody with that stuff can talk to this guy.

But NASDHAA is a real earth-shaking event in Indian country. We can talk about it in the kind of clinical generic terms, we have this new act and it does these things, but it really is a fundamental

C-change (phonetic) in terms of how Indian housing is part of the tools that we need to bring about change in our communities.

I was listening to the words that Mr. Burke spoke this morning, and he said something that really touched on what I was hoping to get across here. And he talked about when there was a war, and all the people came together, and that's how we won the war, and that war continues in Indian country.

Well, it has struck me over the years that we have been given a number of different tools but we have never been able to bring them together as one. We have never been able to create one arm. We were sent out and given all of these programs that kept us working out of little boxes.

And so the housing people never talked to the employment and training people, never talked to the social services folks. And nobody was paying attention to what the health care workers were doing, and everybody operated in their own little boxes in their own little world.

And we have spent a number of years now -- my friend, Leo Cummings from Fort Berthel (phonetic) is here. Leo and I have been leading the charge the last few years in consolidating our employment and training programs together and finding smarter ways to work. We are not getting anymore money in Indian country for the most part, so we have got to find ways to work smarter with what we have had.

We have been involved in something called 477 that's made that happen on the employment and training side. Now, housing, with NASDHAA we finally have a program that, as Mr. Goff suggested, comes under tribal control. For years and years, in fact forever, Indian housing was separate and apart from what the tribes were doing.

The HUD people, the housing people, the folks at the Indian Housing authorities, they worked with HUD almost exclusively, and it was a competitive environment. I would write a grant, this gentleman would write a grant, this gentleman would write a grant, and we would go compete against each other, and we would beat each other's brains out because only one of us was going to get money this year. Yet all three of our communities had these terrific housing needs as Dr. Brown pointed out.

I grew up on the Blackfeet Reservation in one of those houses that Eddie was talking about, that you could have put about five of them in this room that we are in right now. And that's where three adults and four children were raised, along with my grandparents. That's why I got into the business that I got into. And it's one of the things that this gentleman spoke about in terms of one army.

We didn't come here to be grant managers. That's one of the things I realized after I got into the business. I was a CETA director and a JTPA director. And it occurred to me over a period of time that what we were doing was working out of these little boxes, and everybody was sort of doing their own thing, and we were never able to pull it together in terms of one comprehensive strategy.

NASDHAA finally allows us to do that. It gives the tribes the ability to take control and to bring housing finally under some sort of tribal direction. And it's a block grant now. That's a very critical piece. We are not competing and beating each other's brains out for funding.

They used to talk about doing Indian housing plans. It was a joke in the old days because you never knew. Every year you rolled the dice and maybe you got money and maybe you didn't. We are all pretty much familiar with that grant game. And it was kind of who you knew in HUD and what kind of a good grant writer you had and all of those kinds of things to determine whether you were able to get the dollars to do the job that you needed in your community.

Now it's a block grant. Every tribe that submits a plan, as he suggested, is going to get money. All you have to do is fill out the forms and get in the documents. So now tribes actually can sit down with some certainty that year after year they are going to see Indian housing money. It is so exciting to me to see that we are finally passed this now you have it now you don't kind of an environment.

We managed to do that with Indian child welfare a few years ago. Now we are doing it with Indian housing. There are $600 million in Indian housing this year. That's up, what, $150 million from the year before. And the tribes have control. They have control. They can either run the programs themselves or they can authorize their existing housing authorities to do it.

But by taking those programs, those housing programs, and talking amongst people like yourselves, the social workers and the folks that are out there working in the communities, the people in employment and training, housing can finally become an integral part of what the tribe strategy is for resolving the issues for these families on welfare.

Welfare reform is the great steam roller. It's coming down on all of us. Everybody is wondering how we are going to break that cycle. And housing has always been one of those pieces that was never able to be there when we needed to do the things that we needed to do.

So NASDHAA really does give us a tremendous opportunity if you use it. We were talking to some folks last night here that there is lots and lots of ways that you can take those HUD dollars and integrate it with the other things that you are doing and really help develop a successful strategy in dealing with welfare reform.

MODERATOR: Thank you.

While we are waiting for some questions from the audience let me ask you how much money is allocated under this new act?

MR. BINGHAM: Six hundred million dollars.

MODERATOR: Six hundred million. Is that sufficient if -- I heard a projection that if we really were truly interested in meeting the need of American Indians it would have to be more like 850 million. Is that correct or?

MR. BINGHAM: I am sure that that's correct, Eddie. We know we always need more money. There is simply no question about that. And with the formula funding it used to be that with going into a competitive environment only, maybe, a third of the tribes in any year were going to see any money. Now everybody gets a piece. So some of the folks who had been wildly successful in generating dollars may see a little bit less money.

We were happy that we were able to get the funds increased from 450 to 600 million. But we would certainly rather see a billion or better. That's certainly probably more appropriate for the job that needs to be done.

MR. MORRISON: My name is Levi Morrison from Umatilla Indian Reservation, and I was on that NASDHAA Committee also, and I know that 600 million is not nearly enough.

But what my question is for the panel is -- I need to make a comment also on Jackie Johnson. It's just (inaudible) that they are not here. I had a lot of questions for them, and I know they have specifics, because Jackie Johnson and Chester were both on the committee with us.

(End Tape 1, Side A.)

MR. CUMMINGS: We have to get people in housing, and how to work welfare reform and to put our people to work. What kind of a ceiling and what is the minimum, we can give our people, our tenants, to get into these houses and not set them up for failure.

A lot of our people right now are getting jobs because of economic development on the reservation, working at casinos and the golf course, stuff like that. Then they are making too much money to keep them into these units. How much flexibility -- the (inaudible) office in Seattle, how are they going to work with our tribes in the northwest? Thank you.

A PARTICIPANT: Well, there's a couple of issues there. The issue of the families that are now making a little bit of money and are becoming closer to middle income, that's a problem because this very specifically is aimed at low income people being defined as 80 percent of median income or below. I wish I had a good answer for you on that one. I don't. It is low income only.

As to the issue of flexibility, you can do virtually anything you want as long as you bear two things in mind, that it's low income housing related and -- and what else? It's low income and it serves low income families, is what I am trying to say, in a housing manner.

So if you can define an economic development opportunity or a training opportunity through construction or use community facilities for transitional job preparation, anything that the Housing Authority, or what used to be the Housing Authority, has generated can be used to help with this transition from welfare.

I am not sure that gets to your question

but --

MODERATOR: Next.

MR. BINGHAM: Can I respond to that question for just a second, Eddie, because I think it raises a really valid issue. And it goes back to this notion that they have had us working in boxes and they have had us working in a poverty environment.

The government declared war on poverty 30 years ago, and we were among the poorest communities in the country so we all signed on. We knew we needed those dollars, we needed those services in our communities.

But it's 30 years later and we are still in this mindset that the Federal Government only comes to help us if we are just desperately poor. And I think the gentleman raises a very valid issue and something that I think our tribal leaders, I know the folks on the committee, were very much aware of, is that NASDHAA is not a finished product by any stretch of the imagination.

And one of the things that we need to do as a people is to fight to make sure that we have the flexibility to raise ourselves out of that poverty and not create incentives basically will only help you if you stay poor, which is kind of where the mindset is. That's not what we need to be doing.

They have had us pitching to all the wrong things in our community and we need to be able to start doing things right. And if we need the flexibility to serve folks who aren't desperately poor because we manage to create an economic environment on our reservations, then we should have the right to do that.

You don't tell your landlord how to spend your rent check. And that's what they have been doing to us for a very long time.

And so I think it's one of those things that we need to keep angling -- we know we have a lot of work with very low income people. But once we start getting at that issue and we start raising that, and our tribal planners and our leaders are developing that economic base, we don't want to get to a point where we can't help our own people because --

MR. MORRISON: Okay, Leroy --

MR. BINGHAM: -- we are not poor.

MR. MORRISON: -- but let me ask you this question: Does that allow the tribe the flexibility to do exactly what you are saying?

MR. BINGHAM: To a degree it does, but there is also a cautionary tale there. And Leo and I know, and Gary Bibb (phonetic) here, some of the folks that have been involved in 477, which is the initiative on the employment and training side, go out there and try to be innovative and creative, and quite often you are going to take the bureaucracy on full tilt.

They do not know about innovative and creative. They talk about linkages for years and years. They want to know -- this guy is smiling. He knows what I am talking about.

They want you to write that when you write your plans. They want to know how you are going to integrate. And when you try to do that in any kind of creative fashion our experience has been they don't understand it. And if it doesn't look and smell like something that they have been doing, if it doesn't look like mutual help, if it doesn't look like low rent, they don't know how to deal with it.

A PARTICIPANT: Okay.

MR. BINGHAM: So as a group we need to find those innovations and then be willing and have the leadership to go out there and fight to get the right to do what we need to be able to do.

MODERATOR: Mr. Cummings, could you please, when each of you ask your question if you could state your name and where you are from, please.

MR. CUMMINGS: Leo Cummings from Three (inaudible) Tribes in North Dakota. My concern is on the other hand. You talked about people earning more. My concern, therefore, is on the other hand of TANF recipients that are being sanctioned that are in housing and therefore do not have the rent monies to pay for that. And yourselves have seen that NASDHAA is making the tribes -- this is their business. Now, if they don't got money to pay for the housing your business is going to go down.

A PARTICIPANT: That's a tough one because you have had the authority for over two years now to basically establish rents or home buyer payments at any level you want. You could transfer a house to an individual for no consideration, and that would all be perfectly legal. But what you are doing is killing any cash flow that your housing program has and virtually marking it for ultimate destruction or end.

I think that the key to this whole thing is to really -- Leroy said get out of the box, start thinking out of the box, forget what's gone on in the past, start trying to devise and come up with means on your reservation that work there, that fit, that best utilize housing dollars for the clientele you have.

MODERATOR: Okay, please.

MR. AMIL: My name is Wesley Amil (phonetic). I am a MSW, and I work as an independent contractor. I work in North Nevada currently. I am out of Boisie, Idaho.

My concern is at a national level, regional, state and reservation level I think, and as was in the opening remarks by one of the elders here, I think that is very much and very consistent to the vision.

I think the mission we need to really think about is we need to find some consistent values, and our policies need to be value based, and they need to be consistently based across all the spectrum because what I think we have seen in the past, like you have talked about, has been a conflict of values, really, we have run into.

So working with mainly juvenile offenders what I see when you go into a poor community, like we know that most reservations are -- in 1934 when we adopted a democratic form of government the thing we forgot to do, and the thing that I think today is very much inconsistent is the fact that we don't have that capitalism that drives the nation. I mean, we lack that on reservations.

So I think that we need to really focus on having a consistent value base in our policies across the spectrum. Not only that, we also -- you know, because when you bring in young Indian men into a program there is going to be his sense of coherence and that of a middle class white person. They are going to have a lot more resources to access than that young man and that family. So how are we going to develop strategies to enhance those families.

And also the ability I see in middle class America is they have access to credit. Indian people have access to credit maybe one time. I mean, all these gaming tribes, I think we should pool our resources so that we can develop sustainable businesses. And that's really truly where it's at. We need to create opportunity.

Once we are able to develop resources for families and strengthen families, we will bring families together. So my question would be what type of uniform strategies and value based strategies would you people, as board members here, panel members, develop, and what values would you use.

MR. BINGHAM: I think we are getting to an environment where we finally have the ability to start -- getting to a point where we can think about developing those strategies. In years gone by, with everything being disjointed and functioning out of different boxes, it was almost impossible to do that.

And I would like to go back to what Leo asked just a moment ago. In the flexibility that we find in NASDHAA now, among other things the tribe can lower rents for those families, the people who get sanctioned off of welfare. The tribe does now have the flexibility to basically even deed over the house to that family.

In years gone by there is a thing in the housing world they call TARs. And if you are a housing person you know what that means. That's Tenant Accounts Receivable. And in the old environment where you competed for grants, if you had high TARs you weren't going to get any money. So that was one of the conflicts, the inherent conflicts, that was set up. The only way that you could keep that cash flow that he was talking about was keep hammering on your people for those rent payments because if they don't make their rent we are not going to get any money at the Housing Authority next year. That's gone now. The Housing Authority does not have to worry about that. So that's one gun that's removed from their head.

So if you do have those families that Leo was mentioning that are sanctioned off of welfare that simply cannot pay because they just don't have it, it's not going to hurt the tribe now to maybe give them their house or make something available to them. It's not going to wound them in future years of funding. That's another very fundamental C-change that this new act brings to us --

MODERATOR: Let me ask, then. We have got a number of other questions, however. And this is a very simple question. A lot of the services, support services, that we have been talking about, whether it's child care or housing, or whatever, almost seems to pit the working poor against the people on welfare.

The question I have in housing, if you are committed to move people from welfare to work, and you have people who are qualified and are able to be on TANF, what is the commitment to make sure or to prioritize those individuals for housing to help them move? Is that a flexibility that the tribe has to set that prioritization?

MR. BINGHAM: It's absolutely a tribal decision now. The tribe has the ability to put them -- the other thing that the old HUD program used to do was you had a waiting list. It was a first-come first-served kind of a basis. Tribes now have the ability to create their own policies and procedures for those waiting lists.

So, for example, if it's a tribal decision to move all of the TANF families or welfare families to the top of the list, or move all the elders to the top of the list, they have that ability now to create that policy where they --

MODERATOR: Okay.

MR. BINGHAM: -- simply did not in years gone by.

MODERATOR: Thank you. I want to get to the two last questions, and then we are going to move on to transportation, please. Here.

A PARTICIPANT: My question -- I am with the Tribal Council for the Carvil (phonetic) Confederated Tribes in Washington State. I just have a kind of a comment and maybe a heads up for other tribes.

(Inaudible) Garden has been training our attorney general too, I guess, because they just issued a -- we are just coming into the construction season. One of the things we have been really trying to do is to get our tribal people in the contracts business, to get some of the head monies for the construction, and we have been getting a little bit of success in that in getting our people to work in those areas.

But now the attorney general in Washington State just issued a ruling that they are not going to give our Indian contractors state industrial insurance anymore, for now anyway. So if they can't get their insurance they can't get all the state certifications. And we have all these contract and procedures in place that require state licenses. And we are just stuck. I don't know what we are going to do now.

They are talking about a federal insurance plan, Senator Inouye. I don't know, maybe something like that is needed because we are just scrambling around now. We have got houses to build and people that can't get their certifications. So just kind of a comment and a plea for help, I guess.

MODERATOR: Thank you.

Is there one more question?

MS. SPENCER: I am Helen Spencer and work at the (inaudible) legal services attorney. I just would say on the sanction issue, though, we just recently completed our regions plan with the state. And in the tribal provision we are successful in getting provision to say that no one should be sanctioned by the state, who is a tribal member, without first going back to the tribe and seeing if they can't remedy what the problem is or work with the problem.

A PARTICIPANT: Good for you.

A PARTICIPANT: I would like to speak basically back to the gentleman -- Admil? Okay, Mr. Admil. There is one thing you might look into either through a consortium or a tribal consortium, and that's the CRA loans. People always think of those in terms of real estate loans, but they are also small business loans and that sort of thing that are made available through the Community Reinvestment Act.

MODERATOR: Okay, let's have one last comment because we have got to move quickly over to transportation.

Please, sir.

MR. BURKE: Oh, this is one of those things, maybe it's too far back but I am going to say it anyway. When they had contracts with HUD, on our reservation we had a big sign that says Indian Housing. Now we deal with HUD and no HUD. (Inaudible) housing, Indian housing. Especially when they go to court the tribe wants to evict people, people that come, prosecutors, want to evict them. This happened a long time ago.

But we called for all the people, Housing Authority, we called for HUD. HUD didn't show up. The party don't show up, they win. Housing was mad over that because we didn't do nothing about it. The third party didn't show up.

So this useless, this housing, HUD. Indian should have been the party that contracted it. Then we could have got them in court. These things are important to the Indian people.

Remember a long time ago people, you got to learn them, teach them health, good health. I remember our people, chiefs go to Washington, D.C. Roll the carpet out for them. Give them what they want, get rid of these Indians. Don't want to hear about it.

But now we have to write the whole ledger. What about the treaty time. Come visit us. You are my children. Now we have to write a whole ledger, maybe two or three ledgers, to get to see the HUD or the president. (Inaudible) is important. We must not leave them out. And they will go see the president. I am your children. Help me. I am the chief, you get me a house, free one.

Still waiting for my 20 (inaudible) of gold. That's something else never transported to us. Still waiting. Maybe I should give the sign like the Indians used to, give lots of talk and then -- always broken one place or another. I hope we can help all these people. This is important today. Think about people that's in it, HUD, attorneys. These people, they should give advice too. Not just leave the Indian.

They went to a store one time, was golfing. Told us to open the golf course. So I was wondering, gee, how am I going to hit that ball over the pole way down there. Studied quite a while, pointed it out. This is what I have seen on TV, I was telling myself. Maybe I'll try it that way. And as I aim down there, I swung, I look down and made the round circle and (inaudible). I couldn't see it. "Oh, that's a good shot." I was going to look for the ball. Couldn't see it. Maybe that's the way with some of us today.

Then I went to the store. I am going to learn how to do this -- book store. They had a book. This lady turned it upside down. So I paid for it and walked outside and look at the book. You know what it said? Golf For Dummies.

MODERATOR: Mr. Burke?

MR. BURKE: Yeah.

MODERATOR: Appreciate those comments. We are going to move along. And I think all of those presented, the bottom line here is as Mr. Burke stated, it used to be we went to the Federal Government and said where is our house.

With the devolution of government and putting the responsibility and the money back in the community we no longer go to Washington and say where our house is, but we go to the tribal council, we go to the tribal administration, and we say where our house is.

A PARTICIPANT: Absolutely.

MODERATOR: So the creativity that we are talking about we know we still don't have enough money and the tribe is expected to be very, very creative so that greater pressure is put at the tribal level, the tribal council and tribal leadership of how do we take what money we have and put it to work in the most creative way of providing quality shelter for Indian people. But clearly it goes back to the tribal government.

Gentlemen, I want to thank you. Don't leave there. I want you to continue there. We have got to move on to transportation. Let me set the stage quickly.

Some of our researchers said that transportation was mentioned as one of the main barriers to putting TANF recipients back to work.

Judging from some of the comments of a state worker, it says the biggest problem is that people tend to live far out from the nearest town. There is no public transportation.

People in remote areas are isolated. They need assistance to get to the state office. The tribe owns a bus but there is nothing to help people get to work. Their available transportation is not adequate for maintaining employment.

A TANF recipient stated, "My transportation is definitely not adequate. My truck is always broken down. The further I go with my education and training the harder it is. I am not close enough to town, I am not close enough to stores. My aunt has to take me shopping. I have to go 30 miles for gas."

A tribal social service provider stated, "Our transportation problems are shocking. We are close to the city yet we are still isolated. It's like there is a big wall around our community."

So transportation is critical. They are saying it makes no difference. If you have got a job people are not going to hire you if you live many, many miles away. If you can't get there, there is no reason why you should take a job, et cetera.

Let's first go with talking about some of the initiatives. I want to turn to Doug Burnie (phonetic) who is the Welfare To Work coordinator for the Federal Transit Administration.

MR. BURNIE: Good morning. At the Department of Transportation we agree for the last year and a half to two years we have been working very hard to make sure that as welfare reform moves forward transportation isn't a forgotten issue.

At the Department of Transportation we are saying that transportation is actually the "to" in Welfare to Work because you can't get a job if you can't get to a job. According to the Administration for Children and Family, they have been saying that only about 6 percent of welfare recipients own automobiles, and that the automobiles that they own are worth between six and $700. So that means they are not all that reliable.

So we are going to have to depend on public transportation and some kind of specialized transportation to get people to support services and to jobs if we are going to be successful with welfare reform.

Unfortunately, at the beginning of welfare reform transportation wasn't very high on the agenda. I got a call about a year and a half ago from the Administration of Children and Family saying that they were evaluating the first states that had been granted the waiver prior to the passage of the Welfare Reform Act. And guess what was the major problem. It was transportation.

When I went to that conference call with the states and some of the regional offices I asked them what kind of planning had they done for transportation when they had gotten their waiver. And it was dead silence. So there wasn't much by way of anticipation.

And the TANF plans that have been submitted, very few of them mentioned transportation. But we know we are not going to be able to succeed if we can't get people to jobs.

Now, what we have said the basic problems were in terms of transportation is where the jobs are and where people are. This is both true in the inner city and in the rural areas. Most of the jobs in this country are growing in the suburbs and yet it has some of the poorest connections vis-a-vis public transportation.

Also, the jobs tend to take place, entry level jobs, not necessarily during the nine to five work hours. They are often during shift work. So that means they are going to be late at night or on weekends. And guess what happens to the public transportation we have late at night and on the weekends. It's very difficult.

And also about 90 percent of the people who are on welfare are mothers with children. And so those trips aren't just getting on the bus and going to work. They tend to be very complex trips getting your children to welfare.

Now, this is a very difficult problem and it's easy to get discouraged about it. But one of the things we have been trying to do is get that on the agenda both with the TANF programs and the Department of Labor with their three billion dollar welfare to work program. Because typically people on the human services side, the way they tend to think about the problem is here is a subsidy, here is money for the transportation. But it does you no good to have a subsidy if the transportation isn't there in the first place.

So we work very hard with DOL and HHS to make sure that those TANF dollars and those welfare to work dollars, the $16 billion a year for TANF and the three billion over the next two years for welfare to work can be used not only to support individuals' transportation but actually to create transportation.

In addition to that many of you may have heard that the highway and mass transit programs are being reauthorized right now. It's called ISTEA. The Congress is looking at those programs right now and reauthorizing them. As part of that the administration has proposed a program to put additional dollars out there to help make those connections to connect low income people as well as welfare recipients to jobs and support services. And the Senate has passed that bill, and the House has passed that bill. And each of them have reserved $150 million annually for that.

But it's a good time to be talking to you because we haven't decided exactly how we are going to administer that program, so this is a good opportunity to talk about that.

MODERATOR: Let me just ask quickly. Is it ISTEA money we are calling it?

MR. BURNIE: Yes. It's --

MODERATOR: Okay.

MR. BURNIE: -- access to jobs, and it's part of the ISTEA reauthorization in the Senate and the House --

MODERATOR: And that money is coming down. And how much has been appropriated nationally?

MR. BURNIE: Nothing has been appropriated. The bill is just --

MODERATOR: It's just a request?

MR. BURNIE: -- reauthorized. So we know that the glass is $150 million. The appropriators have put no money into it yet.

MODERATOR: Okay.

MR. BURNIE: They are waiting for the final passage --

MODERATOR: And you are saying that no decision has been made as how that money would be distributed, whether a portion of that would come off the top to tribes?

MR. BURNIE: That's right. It's a competitive program, but the details of how it will be administered are yet to be determined.

MODERATOR: Okay. I think that's important to know. Okay. Thank you, sir.

Next, we have Mr. Robert McKay who is chairman of the CAL Transit Native American Advisory Committee with the State of California, Department of Transportation.

MR. McKAY: Good morning. Like you said, my name is Robert McKay. I am (inaudible) from Northern California.

What I will be addressing today mainly would be dealing specifically with California and the problems that CALTRAN sees in California. I guess all of you kind of heard it before. California consists of about 104 federally recognized tribes. CALTRAN broke up into like 12 different districts.

Within the State of California we have what is called an MPO and RPTAs. Metropolitan Planning Organization and Rural Training -- Rural Planning -- anyway, RPTAs, whatever. Today I am lost for words. But anyway they are the ones -- the RPTAs and the MPOs are the ones that control 75 percent of transportation monies that comes into California.

All the tribal governments within the State of California, if they have a plan or they want to get some type of input on how transportation is going to affect their people getting from point A to point B, point A being where they live, point B being where they want to go to work with this welfare reform, they basically have to get a hold of the MPOs or the RPTAs, whichever one is in their district.

And one of the best ways to do is to find out what district you are in, CALTRAN's district, and who is the administrator of that district, the district director, and find out what MPO do I fall into to go apply for the type of changes and let the MPO know the needs that we are experiencing here in California. And you have to be put on a list.

It's kind of like, yeah, we can help you but get in line. Oh, incidentally, on all the RPTAs and MPOs no tribal government sits on any one of them. So we basically know where they put the emphasis on the input that they are going to get. It comes from non-Indians.

The other thing is that CALTRAN itself is just now in the process of developing a proposal to submit to Department of Labor and probably to Department of Transportation when it comes into reality if they do get any part of that glass of $150 million. We will probably be writing a proposal on how we want to do this.

So what we need also is from the tribes in California to put input into their district directors and into the deputy director which in California is Alan Hendricks. He is in 1120 N Street in Sacramento.

Go ahead. I know you are dying to break me off.

MODERATOR: Let me just ask, because we want to make sure we hear from the last individual before we go into questions. But the fact is does any of tribes receive transportation money directly from the Federal Government, or do most people have to go to the state right now?

MR. McKAY: Within California we have, well, Bureau of Indian Affairs. They do have their transportation monies --

MODERATOR: Which is just highway money.

MR. McKAY: -- which is basically that, right.

Tribes that get other monies like, say, from your MPOs or state transportation dollars, I would say, no, it is non-existent.

MODERATOR: Okay. So right now our major way of getting transportation money or something is working through the state unless we were to approach the ISTEA situation and begin to talk about direct funding.

I want to move quickly to the next individual if you have a closing comment.

MR. McKAY: ISTEA, I don't know how it works in the rest of the states, but in California ISTEA has a certain amount that is line item for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And then they have the rest of that gone to the Department of Transportation which 75 percent of the monies that come into California through gas taxes or the Department of Transportation goes out to the MPOs and RPTAs. And they control what is going to be used towards -- the department itself only has 25 percent, and that's to run all the state workers, CALTRAN's workers, and different type of programs that they want funded.

The RPTAs and the MPOs do have access to submitting proposals for a portion of that 25 percent that CALTRAN has.

MODERATOR: Now, will the ISTEA legislation change that, or is that still going to continue to work that way?

MR. McKAY: As was said earlier, under ISTEA most of the money goes out either to the states or the metropolitan areas. If it's a metropolitan area it goes to a planning organization that represents the area decision maker. I don't see any apparent reason that a tribe couldn't be part of that area decision making.

That metropolitan planning agency takes those dollars and then allocates the dollars either for highway projects or for mass transit projects. That is still the basic way in which the program will work under the reauthorization as well.

MODERATOR: Okay. Let me move next to the --

A PARTICIPANT: Let me answer a little bit more on that one. The man from Department of Transportation is talking about the money going out to the tribes or out to the MPOs and the MPOs represent the tribes. Nowhere in the United States, that we know of, maybe it does exist, that an Indian tribal government sits on an MPO. And the MPOs are the ones that allocate where the dollars go.

MODERATOR: Okay, thank you.

Let's move on to the next individual, Everett Waller, who is chairman of the Intertribal Transportation Association.

Mr. Waller.

MR. WALLER: I am going to stand up and talk to you. I have got a different approach. I come from a cultural home in Hominy, Oklahoma. I am an Osage Indian. God has graced me with the presidency of the ITA, the Intertribal Transportation Association. I am not going to go into the rhetoric you are hearing now.

All I know is that on this legislation, as far as transportation goes it's never going to be enough. It's never going to be on. They are talking of $150 million. They are going to rob Peter to pay Paul there. That seed money is probably going to come out of your tribal money.

Now, when they come up and talk 450 million, then that will be good because I put a curb on guttering back on the reservation. We identify our monies. ITA, the organization itself, is to help Indian tribes get organized, get your dollars. That's your new bullets, is that dollar. Every one of them you can get, that's a bullet shot off.

We had warriors lawyers speaking this morning. That does us good. When you have an elder we feel like you have arrived. But as far as transportation issues go, we need to get together, you get your monies together, and you will be powerful.

It's an honor to be up here in northwest country. I come off the (inaudible) Reservation. Our money, we never did see it. When I was a council member the only way they found my home is I took $15.4 million of theirs. They were there the next day. You go home and try the same thing.

The least I can say is this -- oh, I had a lot of things I was going to say, but after hearing a lot of this it's hard to do.

As far as representing all tribes as the president, all I know is that they might drag me out here while I am still rambling. But you still go home, you identify your needs, and you collect your dollars, and we get together and we get them.

I work with enough legislative aides. Yeah, I know that split tongue. When they are here with you they tell you what you want. But when they are back here at Blackie's, at that steak house, drinking them highballs, you ain't there, and neither is none of your issues.

So ladies and gentlemen, all I can say on behalf of the ITA, we are trying to get our membership. The commercial will be outside. I am going to save my time for talking to you. Get together with everybody. That eagle can fly with all those feathers. It will never go without any of them being gone. It puts it back so it can go up to God and fly and talk to him. If we pray to him like your elder says, he gets to come home, talk to us.

My culture is my only defense against this world. I don't blend. I can't even get a ride from the guy from the shuttle here, and I represent 557 tribes. A hundred and twenty plus are transportation tribes. Welcome to the third world. That's where they want you. And that's not where I am going to end up, and that's damn sure not where my child is going to end up. So we are going to try our best.

In closing all I got to tell you is this: It's an honor to be here, it's an honor to speak to all of you. And, God willing, our people say when the end of time comes there are going to be two people on it. We believe one of them is going to be Osage. You pray the other one is your tribe. Thank you. (Applause).

MODERATOR: Questions in regard to transportation. Again, we ask you to remember to introduce yourself and keep either your comments or your question specific as possible.

A PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible). I am with the Nez Perce tribe. I have a couple of comments on transportation and I was thinking of what Chief Burke was saying about thinking about the people and their needs.

And I think of a welfare family, a mother of three, who would have to hitchhike to her welfare appointments, hitchhike to her WIK (phonetic) appointments, hitchhike to school to talk to the counselor, as well as hitchhike to tribal court when someone turned her in for neglecting her children, for bringing them on the highway to get to these appointments.

And the concern that I have coming from the Nez Perce tribe, where we are a rural community, our communities are far apart, one of the things we are really lacking in is financing -- and I don't know if that's on the agenda -- financing for the cars that these mothers need to get to these jobs, as well as financing for the homes that they want to house their families in.

When we go to the banks in Lewiston, our closest town, we don't get loans, we don't get the financial, the creditworthiness that they are looking for because we don't have credit experience. We can't go in there and say, yeah, you can check all my credit references. They don't have credit references to check.

And I think if we are looking at housing and transportation we need to think about the people right there on the reservation. Sure it's good to talk about ISTEA and developing roads, but we have people right now who need that creditworthiness, and I don't know if that's on the agenda, to look at financing.

I think you can tell by the turnout here that there is a very strong interest here in the welfare of our people, and it's unfortunate that the room wasn't bigger to accommodate everyone to meet on this.

I had hoped that at this meeting we would be able to talk about some of the northwest issues. We have many issues here to do with land planning, to do with looking for the future, with our housing plan. We have 300 units that we need to build, and we need to find the money to do that. Sitting on the tribal council, how do we find the money to do that? How do we develop that creditworthiness within our own people?

MODERATOR: Thank you.

Let's move on because we have a number of other questions as well.

MS. HILL: Virginia Hill, Southern Indian Health and also Southern California Tribal Chairman's Association.

My question is directed towards Department of Transportation staff member here. And the first one is, can the administration require tribal input on the MPOs, either tribal input or a tribal representative on those MPOs since we are going to be running our own programs?

And the second question is, or just a comment here to tribal members here regarding a Department of Transportation bill that's currently up. We have been lobbying Congressman Filner in our area for direct funding to the tribes so we can provide our own transportation.

We have been meeting with SANDAG, which is the representative in San Diego County, and they basically told us that they were going to exempt tribal people from having to travel if it's beyond one hour, which would mean to them that the time limits would continue but they would not receive the training because of the problems with transportation.

A PARTICIPANT: I think your first question was, is there a specific requirement that the Federal Government can put to the MPOs that they have consultation with Indian tribes or Native Americans.

When ISTEA first passed -- and by the way, ISTEA stands for the Intermodel Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991 -- it had very, very strong -- it took the public involvement process and it stepped it up a notch.

The idea is that there should be no plan, transportation plan, without full community involvement, including Native Americans. The enforcement of that has probably been very uneven. I mean, as every MPO has striven to develop a public participation process, in developing that process they are to be going out within their communities, including the Indian members of that community, and developing that public participation process.

It isn't something they are supposed to do on their own but to do collectively. And periodically they are to revisit that process and try to improve upon that process. So that's one opportunity.

If you find in your area that that's not taking place, that you are not having the kind of input that you should have in developing your transportation plan, then I think the proper step is to come to our organization, the federal organization, the Federal Transit Administration.

And of course we have got regional offices all over the country, including in San Francisco and California, and try to make that case that we can be supportive of you in trying to make sure that that public participation provides for that kind of consultation because ISTEA went to a more participatory process.

It wasn't that the transportation engineer was to march in and say "Here is my plan," and then sell it to you and try to convince you that that's the best transportation option for your community. It was really a public transportation process. MODERATOR: Okay. Thank you.

We have time for one more question. Yes, Mr. Yaza (phonetic).

MR. YAZA: (Inaudible) to everybody from the Navajo Nation. My name is Alex Yaza with the Navajo Nation. I am the TANF coordinator for the nation.

I have got a question to Mr. Burnie from DOT. First of all, I just want to make a comment. It's very interesting that as we sit here today, which just brings up another matter, which just clarifies itself, federal agencies such as DOT, DOL, DHHS, and other programs that are involved in welfare reform, should be all sitting at the table together in regards to these developments because that's what forces us as tribes to talk about these consolidation and integration efforts. Earlier there was a mention to that even with the housing issues. But above and beyond that my question is regarding the ISTEA dollars. You were mentioning that there would be about $150 million for access to jobs in which a bill would be reauthorized. You mentioned that it would be a competitive program.

My question is, those tribes that do have current transportation programs, such as we do, we have a Navajo Transit System in existence, a public transportation system, these programs that already are in existence, would they be able to apply immediately for these funds and access these dollars so that we can provide transportation services for our clients in the TANF programs?

MR. BURNIE: Yes. The new access to jobs program is not to support the services that are already there because those connections are already being made. The intent of the access to jobs program, and of course it's not -- the reauthorization of ISTEA isn't complete yet, and then the appropriations will have to take place, so we will have to find out how much money actually ends up in that pot.

And they are general revenues. They are not coming out of any of the formula allocation, so it will come from no other source.

But in terms of those dollars, as I said, they are meant for new services. But existing transportation systems are probably in a very good position to put a plan together and come in for those dollars. Probably in a much better position for those that don't have any kind of plan.

What we have to do is really figure out how this program is going to work. So I am saying we are at a very good juncture now. We know that the dollars are going to be out there because it's both in the House and the Senate. We can be meeting with you and getting your input and figuring out how this program ought to be administered so it takes into account the concerns that you have.

MODERATOR: Okay. I think that's excellent -- we are going to -- Alex, could you hand the microphone over to this gentleman here.

If you could make it very brief, please, and then we can break for our next panel.

MR. LATHER: I will make it brief.

Mr. Burnie, my name is John Lather. I am the director of Social Services at the Iowa tribe here in Washington. We are negotiating a TANF program. I have heard you say we can do this, we can do that, et cetera. I have not heard the Department of Transportation say we have done this, we are doing that.

What have you done to set up a consultation program so that the tribal input can be delivered to the Department of Transportation?

MR. BURNIE: We haven't set up a consultation program yet on the access to jobs program because it hasn't passed. I just called back to the Department of Transportation this morning and the deputy secretary of transportation, Mortimer Downey, has been over at the Department of Interior and they are working on developing a better process for getting Native American input. But this process, until the law passes we won't set up the process.

I just want to say --

(End Tape 1, Side B.)

MR. BURNIE: -- because when they have their welfare to work grants, the supplementary three billion dollar program, they invited the Department of Transportation to sit at the table along with HUD and HHS to help develop their program. And that's why in that particular program those dollars can be used to develop additional transportation services.

We have set up a technical assistance system that's available to everybody who is going to be struggling with this problem now so that we can take, say, some of those of you who have set up transportation systems that are working very well, and then we have a system that will be able to move you to talk to other tribes who are struggling to do the same kind of thing.

So we are trying to set up a framework to tackle this problem. And part of that framework is going to be just like the Department of Labor did, to bring people together to try to figure out how this program would be implemented including the tribes.

MODERATOR: Thank you.

Let's move here just quickly in summarizing. It appears that we got very few, if any, representatives on the local planning boards. It's ideal that we are going to try to do that.

ISTEA is coming down as far as legislation, hopefully in the next few months. They have planning coordinations that's going to do that. The problem is, as this one lady said in the back, we have got women standing on the side of the road with children right now trying to get to and from offices, to work, et cetera.

What are we as tribal governments -- how are we thinking creatively to address those issues? Some individuals are saying let's identify dollars on our welfare to work that can start a transportation program of maybe used cars. Let's put a car pool together on a reservation where we have people who might be able to actually repair those cars or keep them in good repair. But we have got to begin to think in little more creative ways of how we get people from welfare to work. We are a long ways from that. Let's understand that, we are a long ways from that.

But if we are saying we are going to put people to work, we are not going to do it if the transportation system is not there. So in the next year if we don't have a transportation system in place those individuals that hit their 24 months and must be working at least 20 hours a week in most states, are going to be having a very, very difficult time if they are not having a difficult time now. Major problem.

Gentlemen, 30 seconds, 30 seconds is all you get for a wrap-up statement and then we are going to move on. Please. And I am going to time you.

MR. McKAY: Wrap-up statement. I don't know if you guys are aware that California is a 209 state and it says that no preferential treatment from our -- they voted that in last year. So that eliminates a lot of the different types of programs that we can go for as even American Indians, even though we do have a special relationship with the Federal Government. Thank you.

MODERATOR: Mr. Waller.

MR. WALLER: ITA joined it. We are going to go with the same system. I have got a year and a half in office. I am going to keep saying what I am saying.

Secondly, we are going to work on town hall meetings to come all over the reservation. Twelve area representatives are going to identify your problems. Councilmen here, my (inaudible). Northwest Tribes Symposium, May 5th. Be there. This man will tell you what you need to know because I am not up here for the biggest tribe in the world. I want the smallest one. Bring them out of that damn gutter they have lived in and they can't get out of because they don't know how.

But one thing about it, you do it with your culture. And if you don't have one, you go find one. Or you find Lord Jesus Christ. You end in this world like the way you come in, pure and free. Thank you.

MODERATOR: Thank you.

Next we have Mr. Leroy Bingham.

MR. BINGHAM: That's a hard act to follow, I am sorry. (Laughter). This guy gets me all fired up here.

MODERATOR: Fifteen seconds.

MR. BINGHAM: Fifteen seconds or less. It's time to be creative. I think Eddie just said it. We have to look past the obvious. And I think one of the things we need to do is quit looking for somebody to bring money to help us. And sometimes we need to just roll up our sleeves and get down to it. And I think more than anything else we need to find those creative solutions ourselves. It is part of our tradition. Creativity is part of our tradition.

MODERATOR: Mr. Goff.

MR. GOFF: Continuing on the same theme. The ball is in your court now. You guys, you know what you need. You have the expertise on your reservations to do it. Now you have the flexibility through NASDHAA to use that monies in a way that's going to be more effective for your people.

MODERATOR: Mr. Burnie.

MR. BURNIE: On the theme of do it now and not wait, your TANF dollars and those welfare to work dollars can be used for transportation. And there will be guidance coming out to that effect probably within the next couple of weeks. So you can start to use those dollars.

And when the access to jobs program comes down the line those TANF dollars and those welfare to work dollars can be matched with our dollars so that you can have 100 percent federal funding for those transportation services that you need. And the automobile can be part of that. You can use your TANF and welfare to work dollars to do those things with the automobile as well.

MODERATOR: Thank you. We want to thank our panelists. We are going to take just a short ten-minute break, and we are going to be back to address alcohol and mental health issues. Very critical. Very critical in moving people from welfare to work. Ten minutes.

If I could ask the next panelists to meet me up at the head table, please.

(A brief recess was taken.)

MODERATOR: -- with us today. And again we are going to try to do this in rounds. We were able to cover very briefly housing and transportation this morning. But I think cover some very interesting and relevant points in regards to what don't we have and where we are headed here in the future. And the reality is that we have got to become more creative at the local level. And I think you are going to hear that kind of conclusion throughout the day.

Let me kind of set the stage, if I may, by quoting -- we, doing some research, had a chance at different times to talk with focus groups. Focus groups of TANF clients, focus groups of tribal administrators, and focus groups of state administrators in regards to moving American Indian residents from a welfare to work situation.

And it says: "It would be less stressful" -- excuse me. "Within communities personal or family histories of alcoholism were reported to be barriers to employment. A social service director said `Discrimination is a problem here. Once you are labeled an alcoholic you have a stigma for life. People who know the background of individuals won't hire them. That's the weakness of trying to work within the community.'"

In one of the focus groups a participant said she was having great difficulty finding a job. "It's because of my background is why they are rejecting me, because of my name. People think all my family are alcoholics. My father died of alcoholism."

Another woman had a similar story: "I have been sober for three years but no one will hire me because I used to be an alcoholic. I am trying to get back with the rest of the world but I have been labeled as an alcoholic."

One of the things we are finding that's so critical is that many of our TANF clients come to the TANF office, whether it's state or tribal, and come with multiple problems, and one of those is alcoholism and substance abuse.

If we are challenged to move people to a work situation within 24 months how is that realistic? What is the challenge, and what is the coordination that has to be done in regards to the alcohol programs that are currently existing on reservation, and the welfare to work organization that's being put into place?

Now, in order to address that we have two outstanding individuals. We have Dr. Marlene Echohawk, who is the deputy chief of the Office of Alcohol and Substance Abuse Program, the Indian Health Service, Department of Health and Human Services. So we are going to be interested to see what IHS sees as their role in addressing this and working closely.

We also have Ms. Anna Ladamer (phonetic), who is the executive director of the National Association of Native American Children of Alcoholics.

So, please, Dr. Marlene Echohawk.

DR. ECHOHAWK: Thank you, Dr. Brown.

Good morning. It's been a privilege for me and an honor to have been invited here to talk with you this morning. We were told don't be long-winded. So I am going to pose my presentation in terms of questions, just things for us to think about.

Alcohol and substance abuse, as we are all aware, have been defined as the No. 1 problem within Native American communities. And given that fact, we know that we face a big challenge related to the high correlation of alcohol abuse with violence in our communities. And just to name a few of those behaviors we are talking about child abuse, domestic violence, suicide, homicide, gangs, assaults, et cetera.

How are these problems addressed within Native Americans as they relate to welfare reform? Many of our households, as we heard earlier, are single parents with children who are on welfare. Who cares for the children while the mothers are to receive training or to get into the job market? What is the quality of that care?

After the mother is trained what are her chances for a job, not to mention a well-paying job? Has the problem of alcohol and/or substance abuse been overcome?

What alcohol treatment programs are available for families seeking help? What is the quality of the programs? If the mother has no transportation, how does she get to a training resource center and/or a job? We heard those questions earlier.

Are programs available for adults as well as youth? If there are schoolchildren who participate in their important school activities, and we all know how important that is for children if their parents need to be involved there, how is the mother then to be able to participate if she is either in training or in a job that she is mandated to hold?

Who is there for them after school? What fears are there for the mother and what kind of stress does she undergo, the parents undergo? If there is violence in the communities how safe will the children be?

How do we answer these questions in a manner worthy of us as Native Americans and worthy of our children?

So I didn't time myself on that. Those are questions I have posed for our own programs. We have over 400 programs that are 638. You are all aware of that in this area. All of our alcohol programs are 638.

We have ten youth regional treatment centers. And, again, we heard concerns of funding earlier for other programs that we have. Within the alcohol programs it has been estimated we are funded at 40 percent of our needs. So that means 60 percent of the needs that we have to address a serious problem, that we have called our most serious problem. We need to have that extra funding to be able to provide for those services.

MODERATOR: Thank you.

Let's next hear, then, from the next speaker, please.

MS. LADAMER: Thank you. Good morning. I am Anna Ladamer. My Indian name is Yotahowit (phonetic).

It's good to be here to talk about the impact of welfare reform on our women and our children. It's absolutely imperative that we integrate and look at substance abuse treatment and especially prevention when we are looking at welfare reform.

I grew up on welfare. It took over 20 years to get me into the work force. We have to look at what these time limits are. We have to look at impacting the shame messages that Dr. Brown was talking about in terms of being on welfare. Too many of us here know that feeling of those words that have been said to ourselves or our families about being on welfare.

And the only good thing that I remember is how long that commodity cheese lasted because in our neighborhood we built a fort out of commodity cheese and we were able to play in it for a really long time. (Laughter). It does. It lasts a long time.

In looking at welfare reform there is an overall failure to address the impact of substance abuse on poverty and lack of education and the individual's ability to become self-sufficient. And I want us to look at the words that we use in terms of helping our families because even on welfare we are very self-sufficient.

I remember talking to a welfare worker who said that my parents didn't know how to work. And I watched my mother carrying the water, I watched my father build the fires, I watched him cut the wood, I watched him work out in people's yards, I watched my plant the gardens. I watched my mother go and get the garden can and feed us. Very self-sufficient. And as children we learned how to take care of each other at a very early age because we had to.

We must include plans that provide for alcohol and drug dependent treatment services because you can't work and drink.

When my mother descended into alcohol that impacted how much we could eat, and whether that fire got lit. And, by gosh, for her to go and leave the house and go and work, what would happen to us kids because my father was out there working the jobs up and down the state to try to feed us also.

The requirements, in terms of when we are working with the families, need to be therapeutic, they need to be compassionate and not punitive in nature.

One of the things that we learned in our family was how to lie to that welfare worker when they asked, "Did you make any money while working out in the fields picking strawberries? Did you make any money while baby-sitting?" And we said no. And we were working very hard.

And I am very thankful to the people who helped bring some money into my family by being very creative. I went and worked for the city but they knew that it was going to impact that welfare check, and so the money came to my family indirectly. I don't know how they did that, but I knew that they sat down and told me that they were going to do this different.

And those words about being very creative in terms of working with our family systems, the words that we use with our children are going to be very critical in terms of making this transition.

It is absolutely imperative, necessary, must happen that we support a public policy that will not penalize the women who suffer from addiction and have had little or no real opportunities in the past to empower themselves through education, through work, or other resources including child care, transportation, housing, that we have been talking about in our haste to overhaul the system that has many flaws, and they are obvious.

We should avoid replacing it with a system that's going to reinforce and continue to perpetuate a financial and psychological demoralization, to bring those feelings down about who we are as women and mothers and life givers; that we don't perpetuate that, make it worse on our women and children who are affected by alcohol and drug dependents and domestic violence.

It takes more than just a few months to get us out of a violent relationship. It takes more than a few months to learn how to go out and work and know that our children are going to be taken care of in a loving and caring way when we go out to work.

And we must never forget the importance of prevention because the majority of our families are young people, 18. Fifty percent of them are very young, child-producing age. We have to look at the importance of prevention and helping understand alcohol and the effects of racism and genocide on us as a people.

MODERATOR: Okay, thank you.

You know, Anna and Marlene, I don't think any of us would argue with what you have said. It's very clear. But the reality is how do we make that work? How do we recognize individuals coming to TANF, or coming into the state program or tribal program, who may be at risk, or who may have alcohol and substance abuse, if we don't ask, or if we don't have some type of family assessment in place when the individuals come in and we assume people are going to work and we have no understanding the kind of family problems they are having, the kind of individual problems they are having, et cetera?

Is somebody from Klamath here? Oh, there. I knew you were here. It's a kind of a setup. What do you do on a family assessment? What happens? Because I think it's important when people come to the door you have got to be able to assess that family, that entire family, of what risk they are at and whether or not there is alcohol and drug abuse problems involved.

A PARTICIPANT: Well, we do have a risk -- okay, make me speak into the microphone probably so you can record me and send it back down to my boss.

What we do is when we get a client in -- first of all, we know most of our clients. Our case workers are tribal members and they know a lot of circumstances behind the family being on welfare. Let me state that right up front.

But we ask them. We sit down with them and ask them. We use a risk assessment tool that we developed and we sit down and ask them what are the barriers. Actually we have a whole category. Like, one may be is there a criminal background, and what is that criminal background. Have they had arrests for driving while intoxicated.

Do they have those risk areas, those risk factors in their background, is there domestic violence. We ask them. Basically we ask what's going on and use the information we already have in our risk assessment matrix scale we use to find out.

MODERATOR: What do you do? How do you get them? Let's say that they do. Are you set up or organized that there is a good strong coordination between what you are trying to do and what the alcoholism program in the community is trying to do?

A PARTICIPANT: Yes, we do. We have a very good working relationship both with our tribal health organization, Klamath Tribal Health and Family Services, and with the organization that does the drug and alcohol treatment for Klamath tribal members. That's Klamath Alcohol and Drug Abuse or KADA. We will then make a written referral to them for treatment services.

We also on occasion do pre-drug testing as well. If we feel like the family's issues are such that they are using, and that is one of the main barriers, we do do drug screening. We refer them over to a local agency for urinalysis. The first time they get a urinalysis we don't sanction them. That's our baseline if they come back positive for whatever substance they have been using.

And then at that point in time we do testing after that. Actually, the program that does our drug and alcohol treatment does it for us, and they will do random testing. It is a requirement for them to be in the program to do random testing.

MODERATOR: Thank you. Next question.

MS. HILL: Virginia Hill. My question is to Dr. Echohawk. The Southern California Tribal Chairman's Association require substance abuse testing as part of the application process. And if they are found to be positive the plan also requires them to go into treatment or counselling.

And what we are finding out is that there is no funding available for this. The TANF program can pay for the testing but not for the counselling, not for the treatment. And so we have this plan. And the tribal chairs, the tribal leaders that are part of our consortium plan are very supportive of this because this is the first time that we have ever had any leverage in the community to require them to get counselling or treatment.

And we are running up to a brick wall. We have talked to several agencies and there is nothing there.

DR. ECHOHAWK: You are talking about people at the -- counselors or therapists at the doctoral level? Is that what we are talking about? Or at the masters level?

MS. HILL: No. I am just talking about any kind of treatment money at all for those adults that need the treatment. And also the youth as well.

DR. ECHOHAWK: You are talking about in California specifically.

MS. HILL: No. I am talking on behalf of all the tribes because if they run the TANF programs and the individual is having problems with substance abuse

then they are going to be asking you for additional funding.

DR. ECHOHAWK: Okay. The way it is set up now with funding, all the monies go out to the tribes. We have very, very little discretionary funds to speak of at all. So the money is out there. And, again, this is where we are talking about networking. Possibly the states can -- you will have resources there. But, again, what are the priorities with --

MODERATOR: -- lunch this afternoon. Again, we are trying to stay pretty much on schedule.

I think one of the things this morning we have gotten into some really, I think, some critical as well as heavy challenges that affect all of us either as workers or administrators in one form or another that at times we realize the impact and the demand that's going to be on us.

We didn't necessarily create this law. It's a law that has been given and passed by Congress that now falls on our shoulders of saying just how are we going to ensure whether we take the program over ourselves or whether we leave it to the state. How are we going to assure that families and children are being cared for on reservations and in the communities and are not just dumped to the wayside.

So with that I think it is a very important and a very tough kind of job as well as stress on our minds as well. We thought that after this morning, kind of given how we may have left it, it really talked about the seriousness of the issue.

We thought maybe we could give ourselves some strength by having a special prayer song by Mr. Andrews here if he would take just a few minutes and provide for us a little of maybe the spiritual aspect that is so much needed as well as we attempt to do what is expected of us, and assisting us to renew our spirit and direction, and the things that need to go hand in hand.

I think many of you, that as you return home, it's that you return home with the spirit, that you begin to also share with others, and that can provide hope even despite of despair for not only the clients that we work with but for our fellow workers as well.

This afternoon we have got another very ambitious agenda, and I want to welcome all of you back. I know you had to hurry for lunch and we appreciate your dedication of coming back here and being with us to discuss some very important situations here.

Let me read something to kind of set the stage. We are going to be talking first on emergency assistance. And we have with us in that regard Mr. John Bushman who is the director of the Division of Tribal Services of the Office of Community Services in the Administration for Children and Families.

We also have Ms. Edie Adams, Child Welfare Specialist with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Department of Interior; Mr. Bill Clarke, who is the deputy executive director of Human Services for the Cherokee Nation. Will be talking on Medicaid in just a bit.

But I think it's important to understand -- emergency assistance. We talked this morning about the tremendous need, particularly when we are talking about single parent mothers with children and the kind of situations and the needs t